Podcast Episode 78

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Put A Sock On It?

Put A Sock On It?

Episode 78 | 31 min

With Guest:

Dr. Ehsan Ghane, Assistant Professor of Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering of Michigan State University

Jamie is joined by Dr. Ehsan Ghane from Michigan State University, a professor and researcher, for a conversation about which type of pipe is best for specific types of soil. Should the pipe have narrow slots? Should it be wrapped in a sock? What is drainage intensity? Does water-main size matter? Dr. Ghane answers all of these questions and more. Don’t miss this episode!

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What are the differences between regular perforation, sand slot and a sock-wrapped pipe… So we looked at them in the lab, measured the flow, and found that the sock-wrapped pipe is by far the fastest. In fact, it maximizes it.

— Dr. Ehsan Ghane

Guest Bio

Dr. Ehsan Ghane teaches Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering at Michigan State University, along with performing extensive research into drainage pipe pattern and style, and how those things play into increased water quality and crop yield. He holds a Ph.D. from Ohio State University and spent time at the University of Minnesota in the department of Soil, Water and Climate.

Jamie (00:02):
This is the Water Table.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
A chance to hear the agricultural side of these issues.

Jamie (00:09):
Place for people to go find information and education.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
Water management is just going to become even more critical into the future.

Jamie (00:17):
How misunderstood what we do is.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
I would encourage people to open their minds and listen to this dialogue.

Jamie (00:31):
Today on the Water Table podcast, we’re talking to Dr. Ehsan Ghane from Michigan State University, a great conversation about pipe and the styles of perforations in pipe. Something we hear about a lot when we’re in the field at Prinsco. And should I use a sock pipe versus a narrow slot pipe? How do we size mains? And great informative conversation that I think you’ll enjoy and I think you’ll get something from to use in your applications of tile drainage as you’re out and about on your farm.

Well, welcome to the Water Table podcast. Today I have with me Ihsan Ghane. He is a extension specialist from Michigan State University. He’s been around the Big 10 his whole career with getting his doctorate. Is that right? At Ohio State. And then worked at the University of Minnesota for a couple of years and now at Michigan State. How long have you been at Michigan State, doctor?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (01:39):
About six years now.

Jamie (01:40):
Six years. And you kind of specializing in the agricultural bio systems area, focusing on water quality, water management. We want to just talk today about that area and the things you’ve worked on for a while now. I think there’s a lot of good discussions here that you and I can have that really pertain to what’s happening in the field of agricultural water management. Welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (02:09):
Yeah, I’m glad to be here. I’m excited to be here. So yeah, a lot of things going on. A lot of innovations going on, a lot of colleagues, they’re doing great things, a lot of collaborations. And some of the things that when I came here, when I was at Ohio State, I was looking at pipe styles and perforations and I asked advisor, “Oh, why is this one have this kind of style and the other one have another style of perforations?” And different companies were just making different ones.

(02:48):
And I was so interested. I never got the chance to look into that until I had my own program here at Michigan State. So I looked into those things. I thought it would be so interesting. I mean, this is something new. Let’s look at these perforation patterns and the styles. What does it mean if there’s narrow white slide, sand slot pipe, regular perf? We hear that from drainage contractors and industry. So that was the motivator.

Jamie (03:21):
Yep, yep. For sure. And as I think about it, and listen to you too, where you’re at in Michigan, Michigan has a lot of different soils going back to if you look at the geography of the state, right, between all the Great Lakes and how that all happened way back in time with how the earth was formed and the soils. And so some of our areas that I deal with, with Prinsco and that our listeners are in, don’t probably see the amount of perforation patterns that you’ve seen in your area. And so it’s a much more important thing. People have been asking those questions probably for decades and have never really gotten the right answer. The answer that they get is depending on who they’re asking and their experience with it. So no real research or studies have been done. And so just interested to hear more about that and the experience you’ve had and the studies you’ve done on perforation patterns and on pipe styles.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (04:24):
Yeah, that’s right. Michigan has diverse soils from one southwest with the more sandy to the northeast with the more clay. So it is very diverse and these pipe styles come into play. And in fact, there’s fields that vary from there’s sand and clay within the same farm. So those things become important questions. So the question was what are the differences between a regular perf, sand slot, and a sock wrap pipe with a knitted sock wrapped around the pipe?

(05:08):
So I looked at those. We had this experiment in the lab with the sand and the pipe and measured the flow. So some of the findings we had was that we found that if you are in a condition where there’s potential for drain sedimentation, and that means that the fine sand and seal comes into the pipe, it clogs the pipe. So in those conditions you could either use the sand slot pipe or the sock wrap pipes. We found that the sock wrap pipe is by far the fastest. In fact it maximizes it. It is the fastest. The tip of the speedometer is at the end of the speed. This is the end if you use the sock wrap.

Jamie (06:00):
Can’t go faster. Yeah,

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (06:02):
Can’t go faster. This is the end if you use that. And that’s what we found. And it was very interesting to find that, that it is a lot faster. It maximizes it. And we also look at some of the economics and we found that because we need to consider there is an extra cost to that sock that goes above the regular perf pipe.

(06:28):
And those things really depend on the situation, on the soils and the climate. So it is very, very variable really to be honest with that. So we can’t really just say that it’s going to be [inaudible 00:06:45]. It really depends. It depends on the site specific conditions, the soils you have the climate like I mentioned. But that’s something to consider because we found that another thing that the sock pipe adds is it lowers the water table faster. So if you got a big rain, you can lower the water table faster. And that’s important for us, for farmers. In some cases, if there’s a heavy rain, you can load it faster and it can reduce the risk of that wet flooding damage to the crop.

Jamie (07:26):
So when you think about drainage intensity and drainage coefficient, and just kind of back up for our listeners a little bit. The drainage intensity really, and correct me if I’m wrong, but really is determined by the soil type and what kind of soil. So how much water is in that soil and how fast can the water move through the soil to get to the pipe? Is that correct?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (07:52):

That’s absolutely correct. Drainage intensity is how fast water moves from the soil. When it rains, it’s in the soil. How fast does that water get into the pipe?

Jamie (08:03):
Yep, yep.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (08:04):
So from the soil into the pipe, it is very fast. It is slow. It depends on the soil and it depends on the pipe. So because like I mentioned, drain intensity is when water moves into the soil. From the soil into the pipe. So the pipe matters. If you have a pipe that doesn’t have much perforations, you could have the most sandiest fastest soil, but still you’re just limiting [inaudible 00:08:34].

Jamie (08:34):
You’re going to restrict it. Yep.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (08:36):
Yeah, that’s why the sock becomes important there.

Jamie (08:39):
So would you say if you have a soil that, obviously if you’re talking about sock or narrow slot pipe, there is some sand, there is a equation of a significant amount of sand, or you would just put in regular perf if you’re talking about heavy clay soil. But we do have soils in which there is 20% whatever it is, sand, but then the rest of the soil is much of a heavier clay type soil. So you still need to have either a sock or a narrow slot.

(09:16):
My question becomes is when that soil is heavier, is that when you would suggest more of a narrow slot pipe because the drainage intensity is just going to take longer to get the water to get through that heavy soil to the pipe?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (09:32):
That’s a good question. Yeah. So if there’s a heavier soil, you may not need any protection for the pipe to keep the soil out of the pipe. So you may not need it. Typically there there’s again, really a lot of research being done on that too. And there’s a threshold of 30% clay, about 30% clay. So if you have more than 30% clay, you should be good. You shouldn’t be really worrying about, oh, my pipe is going to clog with the soil because the clay is going to hold it tight. But if you have less than 30%, as that number becomes lower, then it becomes more risky.

(10:26):
And based on the research, I have a tool, it’s called the drain sedimentation tool, that actually by putting some numbers in about texture and some of the properties of the soil, you can get an idea, is this going to have any risk or not? And that is there to get contractors and engineers started. But over time, what I tell them that you can use this and over time you going to get more experience from the field that when you get a job, you can get some soil and you can say, “Okay, I know this one needs a protection.” So it’s good to start people off.

Jamie (11:07):
Have you ever seen where the soils are such that they kind of, when you get a narrow slot pipe, which we all know when you’re talking a regular perforation to a narrow slot, that the narrow slot is a very fine slot, very narrow. That’s why it’s called narrow slot of course. But where the soil can bridge the openings and just not allow water to come into the… I’ve seen that in just a couple of occasions and some very rare soils where it seems like, and I don’t know what’s going on, but it seems like the soil is almost bridging that opening in that slot in the pipe and not allowing for very much water to go in.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (11:57):
[inaudible 00:11:57]. Typically that soil is going to end up inside the valley. So it’s going to be rare for it just to bridge above the valleys unless the valleys are too small, which I haven’t seen. I’ve sampled probably up to eight different manufacturers in the Midwest and I know how people are doing it, making their pipes. So that soil is still going in and even if it does go in, it’s not going to hold back any water. Water can just flow paths going to find their way, meander and then find a way into the perforation, the opening.

Jamie (12:37):
And so really to wrap up this part of the conversation, we both know that you’re looking at a significantly more expensive product when you’re talking about a sock product compared to a narrow slot product. It could be at least 10% more, maybe 20 depending on what size pipes and how close they are together when you start talking about what that could look like on a full project.

(13:08):
But when you start talking about the fact that you can expedite your drainage and you can see the maximum amount of drainage available through a sock pipe rather than a narrow slot, you really do need to think about that because you’re putting in a project really for the rest of your career as a farmer and maybe even your next generation’s whole career. So you’re talking about 40 to a hundred years that this thing is going to service your family farm. Doing it right and understanding the drainage intensity, understanding how much you’re going to get into that pipe, if it’s sock versus narrow slot is really important to do because yes, more money, but it might not be more over time at all.

(13:58):
It might be costing you a lot of money in the end that you did narrow slot rather than sock if it’s not the right conditions.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (14:05):
To add to that, we also did modeling simulations and we found that the sock creates a modest increase in crop yield. That’s why like you mentioned, Jamie, that you need to take those into consideration and it is very site specific.

Jamie (14:25):
Sorry to interrupt you. But I’m really curious, when you say see a modest increase in yield with sock pipe, is that strictly because you’re getting the water off faster? Yeah. Yep. So lots of reasons to think about that. As we move on to some other subjects, can our listeners find some of this information maybe on your website or anywhere at Michigan State if they want to do some more research and think about it?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (14:56):
Absolutely. If you search for MSU drainage, the first search is going to be the Michigan drainage website where this information with more detail is going to be present on the website. So you can read about all of the things that we are discussing.

(15:19):
One more thing I want to add is, so we talked a little bit about soils that have a risk of drain segmentation, but what if you are in a heavy clay soil and you don’t have that risk? Well, you don’t need to use the sock, but then there’s options there as well. Typically, there’s four row pipes where there’s a pipe with four rows of perforations and then there’s another group of pipes that’s an eight row. By rows, I mean that there’s rows of pipes, eight and then there’s four.

(15:57):
And we also found that the eight row is much faster than the four row, for the same price. So that that’s the key word here. That’s the key word, for the same price. It’s not like you’re going to pay more this time. It’s not like the sock you’re going to pay more. This is the same price. It’s the same plastic. It’s got more perforations for the same price. You can water a lot faster. And so that’s great. So that’s what I recommend to all the listeners and viewers. Go for the eight row if you’re in that kind of a soil.

Jamie (16:32):
Yep. And then there’s other things to consider there around the pipe stiffness and things like that. Again, when you got to look at that with the soil conditions, how deep you’re going, all that kind of stuff, how you’re installing it too. So that’s another thing to consider. But when you’re just looking at inlet area and how fast does that water come in and exit the pipe, your research is showing eight row is much faster than the four row. So just wanted to share that. As people think about that, there’s other considerations too for the pipe and how that works. But let’s talk a little bit. I’m curious about water quality and what kind of research you’ve done and what you’re currently doing and thinking about when it comes to water quality at Michigan State.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (17:21):
Yeah, water quality is important. We try to tie water quality with crop production. Some of the things we’re doing is we’re looking at controlled drainage. Many viewers have heard about controlled drainage is a practice where we manage water on a farm by basically raising or lowering the outer elevation of the drainage system. So we’re looking at the water quality benefits of that project.

(17:50):
And because of our location, we are in the Great Lakes. So phosphorus is top priority. Phosphorus is top priority, [inaudible 00:18:05] Ohio, parts of Indiana with some parts of Wisconsin and also Minnesota. So phosphorus becomes very important in this region because of the Great Lakes. So we’re looking at controlling, how effective it is. We have some more years of data collection to go.

(18:26):
So far we’ve found that controlled drainage interestingly has potential to reduce phosphorus loss. So we are very excited about that to be able to show that with our intense high frequency sampling that we’re doing.

Jamie (18:44):
Yep. Yep. Excellent. Excellent. And do you work at all on nitrate issues in water quality in. What you’re doing?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (18:56):
Yes. Nitrate is second priority here in Michigan. And we are looking at that and we were just confirming what others have found, which is control drainage has been well documented to reduce nitrate load. So we’re finding the same thing. The phosphorus is the new part because where we are located.

Jamie (19:23):
When you’re talking about pipe patterns, pipe styles and stuff, another thing that just probably isn’t necessarily in your focus but you certainly understand and know about is main sizing. And when you talk about a drainage system and having a proper sized main, again, we go back to drainage intensity and how does that soil work. But talk a little bit about that because we have a wide range of listeners, some that really understand that and some that are kind of getting new into drainage. And you can certainly save a lot of money by putting in a smaller main, and that might be the worst thing you can do if you don’t understand exactly how that is affecting how you’re pulling water off your field. So talk about that a little bit if you would. Yeah,

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (20:10):
Exactly. You made a good point that you could put a smaller main, save money and potentially because you’re going to have bids for a job, then your bid could be smaller but may not necessarily be the right thing to do. But one thing that is important is to know that drainage intensity. How fast does water move from the soil into the pipe? How fast does it move? Let’s make up some numbers. Let’s say we know drainage intensity. And there’s tools to calculate drainage intensity. You can go to the website, search for that. We have drain tool on our website. Others have that tool. And like you mentioned, drainage density depends on the soil and also that pipe. So let’s say there’s a half an inch per day drainage density. That water can move from the soil into the lateral pipe, the lateral.

(21:10):
So then the job or the responsibility of the lateral pipe is that to take care of the drainage density. Water moves from the soil into the pipe. But then there’s a main. The main has a job. The job of the main is to move water away to the outlet. That’s why you mentioned that it’s important to have the size of the main properly done to be able to handle that water that’s coming into the pipe. And that number is half an inch in this example. So if I’m sizing my main with let’s say three eighths of an inch and then I know that range intensity is half an inch, and my job is going to be lower cost because my main is now smaller. But I’m restricting. My system is going to be as fast as three eighths of an inch where I should have used half an inch to size my main, but I went with three eighths of an inch.

Jamie (22:05):
Have you done some research to know what that in the end costs somebody in yields, like yield hits on a farm or in things like that because they aren’t getting the proper amount of water off the field?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (22:22):
That’s a good question. I have not. But that that’s something we could look at. That would be important because especially with the climate disruptions that we’re having, including intense heavy rainfall. Just to tie in, also in Michigan we have a drainage workshop where we teach drainage design and also the conservation drainage practices that control drainage. And we also say go with the higher numbers because things are changing. We’re getting increased rainfall and also there’s more frequent intense heavy. So the three eighths an inch, I would prefer to be the higher side that half an inch per day. The one that we use to size the mill really needs to be able to match that how fast water is coming into that pipe.

(23:25):
Let me give you a really simple example. Because remember drainage intensity depends on the soil and the pipe and also the spacing. So if I have a 40 feet spacing, I could hire a contractor. I would say, “I want to have 20 feet spacing.” If I put my 20 feet spacing, I’ve increased my drainage intensity a lot. I can walk and get inside the lateral a lot faster. But I didn’t consider that in sizing the main. So I’m still with three eighth of an inch. I’m literally kind of wasting a lot of the money with splitting the lateral spacing, but not off sizing the main. I’m wasting money.

Jamie (24:06):
Yeah, I’m glad you just mentioned that because I think back in my career, and I’ve worked in the industry on the sales side and on the manufacturing side for 27 years. And in that timeframe, so in that 27 years I’ve seen many, many sites where people started at 150 foot spacing and then they were splitting those laterals at 75. Or much more common 15 years ago where they were at 80 foot spacings and now they’re splitting them at forties. And new construction is really 60 feet to 40 feet is in our area here in Minnesota, what they’re doing.

(24:45):
So the point being if they put the main in 20 years ago on 80 foot laterals and now they’re saying we can see that we really need to split those laterals. We need to have 40 foot spacings on this field. If they didn’t properly size the main back there, if they sized it for 80 foot separation in those laterals, the main is now too small.

(25:09):
Whereas if they would’ve sized that bigger for the future of maybe going to 40 now that expense was paid 15 years ago and not only did they pay that expense, but they were paying for it every year in either getting more yield or not. They’re either paying for it or receiving the benefit of it. So it’s another reason for our customers really and for people listening to really understand this. You’re paying that main cost one time and you’re paying it right now, but you’re getting the benefit from it for generations to come. And just make sure you’re not going too cheap on that and understanding the value you’re getting by properly sizing.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (25:58):
Absolutely. That is very important to consider that. And like you mentioned, a completely new system that goes in today, the designer could say, “Okay, I’m going to go with 40. But you may want to decide to do 20, so I’m going to just size it with the 20 of the main.”

(26:21):
The investment is there. All you have to do is to split the lateral spacing and hook it up to the main. Or it really depends on the eventual decision maker, which is the owner farmer saying, “No, I don’t have that enough money. Let’s just do that. Then I’ll just pay for the up sizing the main later.” So it’s the conversation that needs to happen between the contractor and the farmer to see what the plan is for the future with considering the increased frequency of the heavy rainfall.

Jamie (26:48):
And so much of our industry and this drainage thing has been kind of tribal knowledge and dad did this or grandpa did this, so I’m going to do it this way. And the reality of it is out in Michigan, if you go a little bit further east in Ontario, they’re doing things there that I don’t think people here in the western part of the Midwest, they’d probably say, “We’ll never do that here.” But guess what? 25 years ago they were doing stuff that we would say we’ll never do here and we’re doing it now.

(27:21):
And so understanding that and doing your research, getting ahold of people like you, reading what you have out there, I get kind of passionate about this and I should probably come teach one day of your class on why size the main right. But no, it’s all really important and I hope that our listeners hear what we’re saying here today and are interested in learning more by watching some of the videos you have out too. Really simple. And really you can understand real quickly what you’re talking about with drainage intensity and then how that has to equal the main sizing.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (28:04):
Yeah, if you go to the same website that I mentioned, the MSU drainage, the video that Jamie’s talking about very simply, basically in a very small model, miniature model explains what we just talking about today. It’s very, very intuitive, simple to understand video. I would invite everyone to check that out to see what we’re talking about. How is it in physics? If you look at the water coming from the farm and the pipe sizing in that example. And also we teach these different scenarios. What if this was up sized for future plan? What if you didn’t want to do it? How to lay out the pipe, the main? So we teach this during the drainage workshop, which is an annual workshop. Again, the next one is February 27, 28, and 29 of 2024.

Jamie (28:58):
Great, great. And when you say that 29, it is leap year next year, isn’t it? So there is a February 29 next year. That’s a whole nother subject, but I do know that.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (29:12):
Good catch, yeah.

Jamie (29:14):
Yeah, I know that because I have a son that will be 20, and he was born on February 27. So every four years he’ll be 20, which would be a fourth year is a leap year. He would’ve been a leap year baby had he waited two more days, but he wasn’t.

(29:32):
But thank you for your time today. I think this really valuable information and insightful for people in our industry that I know they’re asking these questions because they ask our sales guys. They ask me these questions. And they’re thinking about it because everybody wants to improve their yield. They want to improve their farm. They want to do the right thing around water quality. And you’re a wealth of information. So I really appreciate you joining the Water Table and thank you for being part of it today.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (30:05):
Yep, I’m glad to be here. I enjoyed the talk. Thanks so much for having me.

Jamie (30:10):
Yes, sir. Have a great day.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (30:12):
Have a good day. Thank you. Bye.

Jamie (30:15):
Well, thanks for listening to this episode. I have so much fun recording these. I hope you have as much fun listening as I do recording. These episodes are available on all major podcast platforms as well as YouTube. So find them and download them when you can. Thanks for joining us.

Podcast Episode 78

Put A Sock On It?

Episode 78 | 31 min

With Guest:

Listen Now

Guest Bio

Transcript

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Podcast Episode 78

Put A Sock On It?

Episode 78 | 31 min

With Guest:

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Guest Bio

Transcript

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