Podcast Episode 151

Home
The Podcast
Why mental health is a farm safety issue

Why mental health is a farm safety issue

Episode 151 | 34 min

With Guest:

Emily Krekelberg, Extension Educator for Farm Safety and Health of University of Minnesota Extension

Emily Krekelberg grew up with a daily reminder of just how much farm safety matters. More than 50 years ago, her father lost his leg in an auger accident on the family’s dairy farm. Although Emily hadn’t been born when it happened, this family history influences her and informs the work she does, to this day.

During Emily’s graduate studies in agriculture education, she began to integrate health and safety messaging into her outreach. Now she’s the Extension Educator for Farm Safety and Health with University of Minnesota Extension, and she’s built a career on a simple idea: mental health is a safety issue too.

Emily joins Jamie Duininck to talk about why farm culture makes it so hard to ask for help, how stress and fatigue affect the split-second decisions farmers make every day, and why something as small as asking, “How are you, really?” can open a door. From financial pressures to the isolation of the job itself, she breaks down why farm stress builds, and offers realistic, one-thing-at-a-time ways to take care of yourself this harvest season.

This episode contains content about mental health conditions that may be distressing. If you or someone you know is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the National 988 Crisis Line. Or contact the Crisis Text Line by texting TALK to 741741.

Listen Now

For me, mental health is a safety issue.

— Emily Krekelberg, Extension Educator for Farm Safety and Health, University of Minnesota Extension

Guest Bio

Emily Krekelberg grew up on her family’s dairy farm near Le Sueur, Minnesota, and earned degrees in animal science and agricultural education from the University of Minnesota. She’s the Extension Educator for Farm Safety and Health with University of Minnesota Extension, a role she’s held for more than 13 years. Her work covers grain bin, livestock, and tractor safety, along with farmer mental health and suicide prevention, and she’s a dedicated advocate for wellness in agriculture.

Emily Krekelberg (00:00):

The way I describe my work is anything and everything related to keeping families, farmers and their families safe, happy, healthy, and alive. It only takes one time for it to go really wrong. How are you really? How are you actually? That opens the door for a person. For me, mental health is a safety issue.

Jamie Duininck (00:29):

Well, welcome to the Water [00:00:30] Table Podcast. Back with you here. It’s been a little while for me, but Jamie Duininck back in the seat here as Trey Ellis has been leading the Water Table a few times recently. But I have Emily Krekelberg with me. And Emily is a farmer mental health specialist and she works at Farmer Mental Health and Safety with the University of Minnesota Extension Office as an extension educator. And she has quite an experience on her [00:01:00] own. She will talk a little bit about her background and how her life evolved to where she’s at today. So welcome to the Water Table, Emily.

Emily Krekelberg (01:11):

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Jamie. I am glad to be here.

Jamie Duininck (01:15):

Great, great. Well, instead of start at the beginning, let’s start with your college experience. And you grew up in Le Sueur, Minnesota, kind of Southeastern Minnesota, for those that don’t know, near Mankato, Minnesota, [00:01:30] and went to the University of Minnesota. But tell us a little bit about that.

Emily Krekelberg (01:37):

Yeah, so I went to the University of Minnesota fully intending to end up doing something in the dairy industry. So I grew up near Le Sueur on my family’s dairy farm, and that was really my passion was the dairy industry, dairy cows, et cetera. And while I was in college at the UofM, I had the very fortunate opportunity to intern [00:02:00] for University of Minnesota Extension with two county educators. And I fell in love with Extension work at that moment. I knew it’s what I wanted to do full-time, and I got really lucky around the time I was graduating from my undergrad. A job with Extension was open, emphasizing in dairy production in Central Minnesota. So I went for it and took that job. So started with Extension fresh out of college, [00:02:30] but my journey with Extension started more on the livestock and dairy side.

Jamie Duininck (02:36):

And then from there, you continued on a little bit with your education or did you do that right away with your master’s? Was that during that time or…

Emily Krekelberg (02:46):

Yeah, so I worked full-time for about, I think two and a half years, and then I decided to continue working full-time, but also go back to the university to get my master’s in agricultural education. [00:03:00] I had always had a big interest in farm safety given some of my family history, which I think we’ll get to in a moment. And so while I was doing my graduate studies, I had the opportunity to do a grant project related to farm safety messaging and communication with dairy farmers. So it was really a perfect fit for me and it really helped me, again, just do more [00:03:30] work in that farm safety and health type realm. At that time, I was really interested in safety, but I recognized the importance of the health piece in safety as well. And so after that, when I got my graduate degree, I was still in that more dairy emphasis position, but really found ways to integrate safety and health into my education and outreach.

(03:56):

Any program I was doing, we could always spend a few minutes [00:04:00] talking about a safety topic or something like that. So that was a lot of fun for me to be able to explore that with specifically the livestock and dairy producers I was working with. But I really wanted to be able to do it on a more statewide level, not just in a couple counties.

Jamie Duininck (04:19):

Sure, sure. Well, thanks for that. Let’s back up a little bit more to the beginning and even before your beginning, [00:04:30] your family is in the dairy, obviously you’ve said that dairy farmers, but what generation of a dairy farmer would you be in your family if you continued and does the business continue with one of your siblings?

Emily Krekelberg (04:44):

Yes. So it’s no longer a dairy farm, but we still have crop and beef cattle. So my brother and I and all my siblings were the third generation, so my brother’s kids will hopefully be the fourth generation in a couple [00:05:00] decades. So yes, the dairy farm was started by my grandmother, so my dad’s mom, and my dad was encouraged to spend some time working on a different farm in his teenage years. And while he was doing that, he was unfortunately in an accident that resulted in him losing his leg in an auger. So yes, this was in 1974, [00:05:30] I think, 1972. My dad was 19, so it was before I was around.

(05:38):

And yeah, of course, that was a really life-changing event for my dad. And I could tell the whole story here, but we have a lot of things we’re going to talk about, I know. So to make a long story short, my dad did become an occupational therapist, but could not stay away from the farm, so decided to do both. So he spent four decades [00:06:00] being a dairy farmer and occupational therapist working with people who have injuries like his. So pretty cool story. And really growing up, we always knew the importance of farm safety because there was a daily reminder there.

Jamie Duininck (06:16):

Well, and the more interesting thing to me just listening to that short description is just the idea that something very traumatic and very life-changing, as [00:06:30] you put it, happened to your dad over 50 years ago. And it’s still impacting his family by what you are doing now, even if I’m assuming your dad’s probably retired. But it impacted him his whole career on not only his mental state and being very concerned about safety on the farm, but then also his other occupation as an occupational therapist was something that he had passion about because of his injury. So [00:07:00] my assumption is now with you doing this as a career and your siblings’ children, your nieces and nephews will continue to be impacted because they know their grandpa and they know their aunt, which is really interesting on how these things happen. And I’m sure it’s part of how you go about sharing your own personal story and then weaving that into safety on the farm.

(07:26):

And so, let’s talk a little bit about that as an Extension [00:07:30] officer and educator that really has, you have a lot of different things I’m sure you talk about, not just safety, but that’s where your passion lies. And so, how do you weave that into your messages and give us just a few different examples of that?

Emily Krekelberg (07:51):

Yeah. Well, and there is a good handful of us across the country that work in farm safety for Extension, and [00:08:00] we always joke that it’s not a very popular topic, it’s not very exciting, people aren’t really naturally drawn to it. And part of that is because a lot of us feel like we already know a lot about safety and we do, but that doesn’t mean we necessarily practice it. And so I always really try to position my messages as these are things we know we sometimes just need reminders to do them. And you’re absolutely right, Jamie. [00:08:30] It is helpful to me to have my dad’s story to go back on because this was a farm he had been working on for quite some time. He was doing a job he had done a thousand times before. It was one of his daily tasks. So there was nothing out of the ordinary. It was just this one time he did not step over the auger quite high enough because at that time the augers did not have any sort of shielding or guarding on them.

(08:59):

And so, [00:09:00] that is really what I like to tell people is you can do something a million times and you get really comfortable doing it, but it only takes one time for it to go really wrong. And so, it’s always a matter of not letting yourself get too comfortable. I always tell people I’m never trying to scare them, I’m just trying to increase their vigilance and just giving them reminders about what is the safe thing to do. And my kind of catchphrase [00:09:30] I use is slow down, think twice, be safe. So I think there’s always a lot to do, not enough hours in the day, and we rush around and when we’re trying to cut corners or even accidentally cut corners, that’s when mistakes happen, incidents can happen.

(09:49):

So yeah, I just really try to be realistic with it and yes, based on my family’s experience and other people’s experiences. And the one thing [00:10:00] I always say is I don’t want other families to get the phone call my family had to get. That has to be so devastating. So that is definitely a focus of my message.

Jamie Duininck (10:14):

And I think often, just speaking from my own experience, but we all know, like you said, the dangers. Most of the time you talk about things like bin safety [00:10:30] or enclosed space safety, things like that. We know those things. Usually we know the stories of when there was tragedy, we know we shouldn’t do them, but you get complacent, you take time. And so, I think part of the great thing about your message is even if somebody’s been doing things they know they shouldn’t have when they hear your story and how it impacted you personally and your family, they might stop doing it for a while and hopefully [00:11:00] they hear that story again right before they were probably willing to do something that wasn’t safe again. But I think we all do that. Like I said, I should just speak for myself, but even things like texting when you’re in the car and things like that, shouldn’t do it, don’t do it very often, would be lying if I said I never have done it.

(11:22):

So, those are things that when you see the impact it has and the negative, you realize really quickly that it’s not [00:11:30] worth it. And so, I appreciate what you’re doing out there as an advocate and telling the story and your personal story because it’s a much better connection to people. So, thank you.

Emily Krekelberg (11:42):

Well, thank you, Jamie. I appreciate that.

Jamie Duininck (11:45):

So another thing that you have the opportunity to do that and to connect with a lot of people, I’m sure you’ve also heard a lot of other stories through that that you can use too and not just your own personal story. And some of those are probably [00:12:00] quite inspiring and others are tragic, but anything that comes to your mind around that that you’ve been able to use to help others?

Emily Krekelberg (12:10):

Yeah. Well, I’m really fortunate in Minnesota we have across the state our county-based educators and I do a lot of programs with them in their counties. And something we often try to do is to bring in a farmer to speak who has been in a farm accident, had some sort of injury, or [00:12:30] perhaps a family member of somebody who has passed away. And those are always the most powerful speakers. Those are always when you could hear a pin drop throughout the crowd. So you’re absolutely right, Jamie. I mean, those stories are very powerful for people and it does, it makes it more real. It makes us realize like, “Hey, this can happen to my neighbor. It can happen to anyone.” And a lot of us have stories [00:13:00] of we know so-and-so, or my cousin, or my grandpa that lost a finger or got their foot run over or whatever it may be.

(13:08):

And so, it’s definitely important to be telling those stories. And I know one that really sticks with me. A couple years ago, we had a mother come and speak. Her child was hurt in an ATV accident. They weren’t killed, but they did suffer a traumatic brain injury. [00:13:30] So they are a very different kid now. And I just remember that being very powerful. And this was an event where we had families, so parents and their kids. And I think for both of those audiences, it was so important to hear that. And I think the kids could really hear the emotion and the power in the mom’s voice, and I think really be able to think about how hard this is [00:14:00] for their parents. And also understanding that, yeah, this is very real, and it was so real that this child was not able to calm themselves to speak with us.

(14:14):

And again, that is just one example of many, many stories. And it’s so unfortunate that we have a variety of stories to choose from, but I am grateful that we have that as well because again, we’re able to get [00:14:30] some really important messages, especially to people who really need to hear it and are impressionable like kids.

Jamie Duininck (14:36):

Yes, yes. And the interesting thing is I think there are so many more people, even kids that are comfortable talking about or telling somebody to be safe. They probably are doing dumb things themselves, but hey, we need to be safe when we do this because they’ve heard the story, because they have an uncle, or [00:15:00] a neighbor, or whatever that had had something happen that was either a close call or something really bad happened. However, and this is switching gears a little bit to the mental health side, I think it’s much more challenging for people to talk about mental health, both people that are having a struggle personally, they’re embarrassed by it, don’t want people to know, or others to understand they may see something. But the willingness [00:15:30] to say something because they’re intimidated by it is quite different than the safety side. And you’re dealing in both.

(15:38):

So how do you switch gears? How do you do that? How do you have those conversations? What’s your advice? I think it’s great that we’re talking about this right now as we’re going into fall. It’s a real challenge to get things done here. There are, well, now I’m going on a rant, but I love this rant, so I will a second. What happens in America and [00:16:00] the rural America in the next 60 days is nothing short of amazing on how much work gets done. But with that work, there are millions of trucks on the road, there are millions of moving parts, there are millions of people working at night, 16, 18 hours a day, and there’s accidents that can happen. There also is life that’s happening at the same time. And so at the same time, that mental health thing is very real, and I just wanted to talk about that.

Emily Krekelberg (16:29):

Yeah. And [00:16:30] for me, mental health is a safety issue. There is a very real relationship between the two. I mentioned my kind of slogan for safety is about slowing down, thinking twice. And when we are under a lot of stress and our bodies are releasing a lot of cortisol, that makes our brain a lot more fuzzy. It impacts our ability to make quick decisions, which on the farm, producers are faced with dozens of those every [00:17:00] day. And so, I certainly do see mental health as a farm safety issue, and farm safety can also help us maintain good mental health as well. And you’re absolutely right, Jamie. I can have a line of people after a program waiting to talk to me about safety or tell me a story. And then after I talk about mental health, maybe less so. I would say in the last few years, people [00:17:30] have been more willing to talk about it, but they need that invitation first.

(17:36):

And it is difficult, of course. And I think the number one thing I see is just people believing it is only them. I am the only one being this impacted by this. I’m the only one that feels this way, so people won’t understand I’ll be seen as weak or incapable. And I [00:18:00] think that’s where some of this can start.

Jamie Duininck (18:04):

Right, right. And having that conversation and being open to it, but what do you do to encourage people that just the general public more to have those, to be open to have the conversations, to be open to being aware of their surroundings? Because I think most of the time [00:18:30] when something tragic happens within mental health, a lot of people are like, “Well, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that person was going through that or I didn’t…” So how do we develop some awareness of what’s going on around us?

Emily Krekelberg (18:48):

Yeah, I think that’s a great way to put it, Jamie, developing an awareness. And I would say, I think a lot of us have that awareness. We maybe just don’t quite know how to act on [00:19:00] it, so we don’t. I know for me, I can think of many times throughout my life where I have seen or perhaps talked to somebody and I just know something’s wrong or something’s not okay. But my own fear, my own discomfort kept me from saying anything and feeling like, “Well, I should say something, but I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what the right thing to say is, and I don’t want to screw it up, so it’s easier [00:19:30] for me to stay quiet.” And so, I would say for people, the first thing is just an awareness of that, of checking on somebody you are concerned about and care about. Can be a little uncomfortable. That is part of this is we have to be okay with making ourselves a little bit uncomfortable for just a few minutes.

(19:53):

And with that too comes, once you have that awareness, being intentional [00:20:00] about what you say to that person. And I think we all fear we need to be mini counselors. And I always tell people, my degrees are in animal science and agricultural education. I have none of those fancy letters after my name. I’m not a counselor, therapist, psychologist, et cetera, and you don’t need to be. I always tell people, again, intention and the easiest thing you can do is if you are worried about somebody, [00:20:30] is ask how they are.

(20:32):

And I don’t mean the usual Midwest like, “Hi, how are you?” Where we say it as a greeting, and I will do that, and then I just ask it again, right? So I might say, “Hey, Jamie, how are you?” And you go, “Oh, I’m good. How are you?” “Oh, I’m good. Thanks for asking. You know, Jamie, but how are you actually? How are you really?” So just adding one word onto that question, “How [00:21:00] are you really? How are you actually?” That opens the door for a person. And for, again, a lot of people who feel like they’re the only ones feeling this way, they feel very isolated, they’re looking for that open door. They can’t always open it themselves because of the way they’re feeling. So just going, “How are you actually?” And you will be surprised what honest responses you can get from people, even people you maybe don’t know [00:21:30] quite as well as others.

(21:33):

Again, just something about opening that door for people can really make a difference. And then of course there’s the follow-up like, “Well, I asked that, and then what if they say something and I don’t know what to say back or I don’t have good advice or don’t know how to fix it?” And you don’t need to, you don’t need to fix it. That’s the biggest thing. I think a lot of us, we want to help and we think help only comes in one form and that is [00:22:00] having a solution. And help comes in a lot of forms and a lot of times for folks who are feeling stressed, the biggest help they need is just somebody to hear them out and to acknowledge the way they’re feeling.

(22:15):

So, the things I’ll say to people, I just go, “Yeah, I’m really sorry you’re going through that. That sounds really crappy.” And if I’m really stumped, I will say, “I don’t even know what to say right now. That’s a doozy.” And that means [00:22:30] more to the person than having some sort of fancy idea or way to fix it. So that’s really my key, I think, is once you get that awareness and are willing to make yourself a little uncomfortable, just asking an intentional question and listening with intent as well.

Jamie Duininck (22:51):

Yeah. As I listen to you, I think you are very experienced in this in the agricultural area, [00:23:00] just in life and things that I’ve experienced and even within my own life is sometimes as you’re dealing with things and you feel stressed, you don’t have an outlet. And it’s like not having a chimney on a fire and you just need even a small one just to say something, somebody asks you how you are and if you can just respond to that, maybe you’re good for today and you don’t [00:23:30] know what tomorrow. Maybe somebody else or something really positive happens the next day or that evening. But it was that little thing that allowed you to share, which allowed you to release a little bit of that, that got you to the next thing.

(23:47):

So, I think the reason I say that as my encouragement to people too is even just saying something like, “How are you?” Or, “How are you really?” And even if they say, “Oh, I’m not very good, and this and this happened,” and [00:24:00] you say sorry, you might’ve made a pretty big difference because that might’ve just released enough for them for that day and that was your part in that to help them get to the next spot. So, I don’t think we have to solve everything. And I think that’s what we think often is, “Well, if I don’t say much, I’m not solving much.” And that’s maybe not your purpose to solve it all for them.

Emily Krekelberg (24:25):

Yeah, exactly. Their problem in that moment is just feeling completely alone. [00:24:30] So just being there to listen to them, that’s exactly what they need and not one thing more in that moment. And so, that’s why I always kind of tell people, let me absolve you of feeling like you need some sort of master’s degree in psychology because you don’t, you need listening ears and good intentions.

Jamie Duininck (24:50):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I wasn’t planning on saying this, but it just came to my mind. I haven’t thought of this in a long time, but years ago I was [00:25:00] listening to the radio after there was some… Actually, I know exactly where there was a school shooting that day and they had some mental health people on the radio and they talked about how engaging teenagers where you have the ability to engage with them, like the grocery store if they’re working there or restaurant or whatever. And just engaging them by, “Hey, you’re a big kid, do you play football,” or whatever it might be. [00:25:30] I’ve done that and it’s amazing how those kind of things with people you don’t know, they don’t get a chance to talk about themselves very often to people they don’t know, and that can be really an uplifter for people.

(25:47):

And living in rural America, we have so many opportunities to do that where you can then connect with the same people again because you go to the same gas stations, you go to the same restaurants, those kind of things. So something I just wanted to encourage our listeners around.

Emily Krekelberg (26:00):

[00:26:00] Yeah, and that’s such a great point, Jamie, and I’m just thinking, I was up at the Minnesota State Fair, I get to volunteer with some of the 4-H programming, so that’s for our youth. And yes, these are youth I maybe don’t really know very well. I recognize their names throughout the years, but being able to tell them, “Congratulations, you should be so proud of yourself,” or if I happen to know their parents saying that, “You must be so proud,” just [00:26:30] getting to be that other person, that kind of unsung hero in that day. They maybe, again, don’t know you, you’re a stranger, but you’re able to just do something small for them. And I actually have a quick story on that. It’s my coworker’s story, but she lets me share it. She was just having a crappy day one time, so she took herself to Caribou, I think, to get a little coffee treat as a pick-me-up.

(26:58):

And when she [00:27:00] got up to the window to get her coffee, the woman working there made very clear eye contact with her, had a big smile, and just said, “I hope you have a wonderful day.” And that made such a difference for her, so much so that she actually drove to the flower shop, got flowers for this young woman, and brought them back to the coffee shop just to tell her how much her kindness and sincerity had meant to her. So it [00:27:30] was not a person she knew, and it was not a big thing. It was just being sincere, giving somebody a smile, wishing them a good day, just making sure you’re really making that connection even with a stranger can make a huge difference for people. Even again, if you’re just having a crappy day, that can really turn it around.

Jamie Duininck (27:52):

Right, for sure, and great story. I appreciate it. I think it said it in some of the notes that I had had [00:28:00] from you as part of your purpose in this is just to build connection, and that’s a way to do it.

Emily Krekelberg (28:05):

Yeah, absolutely.

Jamie Duininck (28:09):

Well, I appreciate. What else you want to tell me about what you do and the passion you have for the farm?

Emily Krekelberg (28:18):

Yeah. Well, I always tell people the way I describe my work is anything and everything related to keeping families, [00:28:30] farmers and their families safe, happy, healthy, and alive. And you’d be surprised how related all of those things are, just like we talked about with farm safety and health being really closely tied, and being in good mental health helps us be safer, and being safer helps us maintain better mental health. I just think that that’s a really cool connection, and so that is certainly something that I really like to share with people [00:29:00] of all ages.

Jamie Duininck (29:01):

Yep, yep. And I liked how you put that, the last two words you said, I think you said them pretty fast, but I think you said happy and alive, and if you’re not healthy or safe, you’re probably not going to be happy, and so they should go in that order.

Emily Krekelberg (29:19):

This is, I think, a really opportune time that we’re recording this, because in just a few weeks, it’s National Farm Safety and Health Week, and that’s [00:29:30] always the third week of September, always aligns with the kickoff to fall harvest. And so, I just feel like us having this conversation right now is so appropriate and kind of a great tie for that. And like you said at the beginning, September’s a good time to talk about this stuff because yes, it’s about to get very crazy for people.

Jamie Duininck (29:52):

Yeah, and I often think about those people that we all have [00:30:00] a lot going on in our lives, whether we’re in agriculture or not. And agriculture adds such a dynamic to it with how unpredictable it is. And I think there’s something really great about that and where we rely and who we rely on, but at the same time, that can create so much stress. And every year is one of them. We could have been sitting here in August of last [00:30:30] year and we would’ve said it’s too wet and we’ve had all this rain and now we’re saying a very large percentage of Minnesota’s in pretty significant drought right now. And next year we’ll be facing something else, but it’s never like, I don’t have to think about it because it’s perfect and I know it’s going to be perfect 45 days from now when it comes out of the field because you can’t do that.

(30:56):

So there is something great about that, but it also [00:31:00] creates a scenario where if there’s other things in your life that maybe start to feel like they’re out of control, it can be part of making that worse. So I’m just thankful that you’re doing what you’re doing.

Emily Krekelberg (31:18):

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that, Jamie. And certainly we want people to be able to, like I said, feel good, be happy and healthy, keep [00:31:30] themselves alive. And that’s certainly a piece of it is feeling like you have that support. And I always tell people as we get into harvest season, in a perfect world, everybody would get their eight hours of sleep and eat three square meals and follow all the traffic laws, but we do not live in the perfect world. We live in the real world.

(31:54):

And so, I always tell people, think of realistic ways [00:32:00] you can take better care of yourself during harvest season. I don’t think eight hours of sleep is realistic for a lot of people, but is trying to get to bed 10 minutes earlier by putting the phone down sooner realistic? I think so. Maybe you can’t sit down and have a good breakfast with all the food groups and sip your coffee and all of that. That’s the perfect world. But is it realistic to maybe [00:32:30] have some coffee with chocolate milk in it for extra protein and a protein bar instead of a pop and a candy bar? Again, what’s realistic here? That’s what I always want people to think about. And even if it seems small, it’s still doing something. It’s still making a difference.

Jamie Duininck (32:49):

Yep. Yep, for sure. Good advice and very realistic because you can do those kind of things. Well, I appreciate your time today, Emily. Thank [00:33:00] you. Thanks for what you’re doing and keep up the good work and keep people safe this fall.

Emily Krekelberg (33:07):

Yeah. Thank you so much, Jamie. And thank you again for having me. It was great to be on. And as always, I like to remind people to slow down, think twice, and be safe.

Jamie Duininck (33:17):

We’ll end on that. Thank you very much.

Podcast Episode 151

Why mental health is a farm safety issue

Episode 151 | 34 min

With Guest:

Listen Now

Guest Bio

Transcript

You Might Also Like

Podcast Episode 151

Why mental health is a farm safety issue

Episode 151 | 34 min

With Guest:

Listen Now

Also Available On

Guest Bio

Transcript

You Might Also Like